Hello. Hi. Writing down a note to remember. So wonderful to see everyone or not see everyone. For you to see us. So nice. I think I'm like, is this our first recording of the new year? Or have we recorded? I can't remember. This is our first recording of the new year. 2024. Yes. We're so ready for 2024. It's already been. So exciting. It's already been a doozy. Yeah. Yes. And we're so happy to have a guest with us. And I just want to shout out again, June, for bringing us together. I feel like the last few guests that we have had on have been people we've met through June. So shout out to June, June McKay. Thanks, June. But yes, we want to welcome our guest, Nisha, and have you introduce yourself. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. My name is Nisha Modi. My pronouns are she, her. I'm a relational healing and life coach and writer. A lot of my own healing journey started with writing about my own story. Astrology, I'm a Virgo sun, a Sagittarius moon, and a Leo rising. And I feel like I also need to say that I have a Libra stellium in my third house and like Like I have like five planets in Libra. So even though it's not my big three, it's very like really colors my chart. Yeah. I got to mention that. You're the house person. I don't know the house person. It's like, you know, siblings communication, like daily routines, stuff like that. Yeah. I have a fourth house stallion. Renee has a fifth house. So we are three, four, five here. This is very beautiful. In terms of ancestors, I'd like to call in, I'd really like to call in my father who passed about 11 years ago. And just all of my, you know, I come, I'm South Asian, I'm Indian. So I come from a colonized country. And And, um, I've been thinking about that a lot in terms of my lineage and even thinking about my, um, elders who are alive, who will be future ancestors at some point and just, you know, just calling in their energy too, because they have that colonized stuff in their epigenetics that I'm sure has been passed down. And that's a lot of the reason I do what I do, which is I really try to support people to live meaningful lives outside of the context of colonialism and capitalism. But when I say outside, I mean, we can't leave it you know it's here right right right but knowing that you know we are conditioned in this way and that we can still live meaningful lives um I really support I end up supporting a lot of people who are people of color black and indigenous um I'm not limited to that but that is a lot of the people who do come to me and You know, they also end up being people who, just like me, have a lot of compassion towards others in the world, but don't always have that compassion toward themselves. They see themselves as helpers, probably make a living out of it on some level and still struggle with having that compassion. helping others but not always helping themselves or having that compassion for themselves so the magic I bring is my own experience as well as my ability to come from this relational lens and that's why I call myself a relational healing and life coach it's not like a relationship coach like per se though of course that comes into the equations relationships are inherently part of our lives but thinking more about how we're relating to ourselves how we're relating to each other how we're relating to the earth and how that informs um how we the ideas we have and how we connect with each other so yeah that is my magic such beautifully said and so much resonance and so much resonance yeah and I think so I let's dive in because um we got a lot to talk about yeah I, you know, I mean, I've been following you. And I think when I know for myself, you know, after October 7th and there was so much I keep saying I haven't witnessed this much divisiveness online. I mean, even. beyond like the Trump years and COVID and you know this is a very yeah like this is just a very I don't I don't even know what to call it it's just it's it's a lot you know um and I was I felt like I was in those early months god it's kind of crazy to say that but like looking for the voice of reason or looking for like um where is somebody that's gonna say something that helps me make sense of not even the world because that you know you can do on some level intellectually, but like how, like help me to make sense of my own feelings. And so I felt like coming across some of your reels really brought to light some of the things that I was feeling, some of the things that we've been feeling and some of the things that we've been hearing in our community. And so one of the reels you posted around shame and the ways that, you know, in the, I'm like, yeah, In the community of those who are advocating for a free Palestine, there tends to be, and maybe it's not just even in this moment, I think really in all... This has existed always. Yes. It's always been those who are... Yeah, who are using shame as a means to try to like bring people in or to say like, hey, you need to be saying something. You need to be doing something. If not, you're an oppressor. Silence is violence, right? Yeah. And using the shameful language, which I think I understand where that comes from. And at the same time, you so aptly in your reel kind of named that that can sometimes also perpetuate harm if people are already in a cycle of shame. And so it doesn't actually do what we want it to do, which is to bring people into, you know, the movement. It actually kind of puts people further into their own shell. I mean, you know, I'm kind of interpreting and paraphrasing, but just this idea of shame and it being used as a tool, but it's not, you know, yeah, I don't know if you want to speak more to that. Yeah. Yeah. There's so much to it. There's so many angles, I think, of the shame. There's just the shame cycle that we already might be feeling, you know, like I'm not doing enough. I can't do enough. Or what power do I have? Or like. Maybe I can do more and maybe I know that I'm not willing to give up certain things, certain comforts. I think there's a lot of different types of shame, but then there's also the act of shaming others. And I think there's a purpose of people who do shame others where... you know, we all feel really helpless. So shaming others is a way to say, like, do something. It's a way of forcing something when, when there is this urgency, like, yes, this is an urgent situation. And at the same time, I think that if we act from shame, if someone is like, I know a Tik TOK or a real or in their Instagram caption, like you should be doing something. Um, how are, how I see people who are silent, how can you be silent? Um, you know, um, I think that it can cause people to maybe take an action from a place of like, I don't want to be a bad person as opposed to, is this actually taking the time to be like, what are my values? Is this rooted in my values? What are my politics? You know what I mean? And yeah, in time of urgency, maybe people think we don't have time for that. And I think it's really important because, you know, if we just come from this place of like doing something because we feel bad or because someone told us to, it's not going to be sustainable. And I mean, I think the other thing with social media is that There's people who have more influence who are just being called out for not saying anything when they might not ever really post in their stories about stuff, even though they see themselves as a political person, because that's just how they use social media. And the argument that this has become such a bigger movement because of social media and it has the power for that. And... therefore making the decision for everyone that that's what they have to do um you know social media if you think about it it's just been in like the last 20 years it's so new and so sorry and consuming just thinking yeah about it yeah I don't know if either of you watch have watched that social dilemma that documentary about social media oh god no I'm afraid to watch it I mean, a lot of it, to be honest, is, I mean, I used to be a librarian. So a lot of it from like the information side, I'm like, okay, I know this. But the part that really stuck with me is that it talking about how our brains have literally not evolved to be able to handle and consume this amount of information. And I mean, it's true before social media, you didn't hear people like many people talking about like, I need to detox from the news. I need to detox from TV. It was just like broadcasting cable TV. Like, yeah, it had an influence, but not it wasn't so multidirectional as talking to each other. Right. And there's great things about social media, but it has so much power. And because it's at our disposal, we might have the expectation that everyone needs to use it in X, Y, Z way if they say that this is what their values are. And we're not having any idea. I'll say I met you once, Renee, and it was actually in person. And after that, it's been social media. I feel like you know I know you through through june there are some values we have but there's a lot I don't know about you in your life like yeah I met you once you know what I mean yeah so for me to say that some person isn't saying something and they're bad or whatever it's like without actually having a conversation with them you know it's just kind of not again it's not relational it's making a lot of assumptions about someone and their world and their relationships And I think that, you know, you in the beginning, you were like, I don't know what the word is. And I think this has just become a very it's like it's really sensitive. It's become really sensitive to a lot of people more than a lot of things. You're right. And I just like going back to the shame thing, I think shaming others and people not just shaming others, but people taking action from only shame, like feeling bad, like I'm supposed to do this. I don't think that's something that's sustainable. put someone further in a shame spiral um but there's also like you said people who are just already in a shame cycle and I think shame serves a certain purpose and we have to sit with that shame you know to see like maybe I do want to do more and I'm too scared to talk to my family members maybe that is something that I should do you know so I'm not saying that if someone shames someone else like it's never effective But I don't know if it's necessarily sustainable because I think there needs to be more conversations about, OK, like what's going on that you cannot even look at look at an issue like this and think that it's important or think that you're connected to it or. who who are your relationships that you can post about black lives matter but you really have a hard time saying free palestine um you know I have a couple of good friends who are actors in hollywood and they're I mean we saw what happened with susan sarandon with some other actors on that screen movie like they were dropped by their agencies like this is very affecting people's livelihoods I know several people in academia as I'm sure that you also have experienced like this is really affecting people's livelihoods so there is a certain sensitivity I think to this um and I think only acting from shame or like shaming actually shaming others it might have a short term effect I mean I'm not disagreeing for a term effect but for something where we're talking about like not just having a ceasefire but ending the occupation you know this is that is like very high level relationships and resource connected things that affect our daily lives like that has to be a sustainable like solution that's really grounded in principles Oh my God, you said a whole like... We'd be taking notes. I know, I'm frantically taking notes because I feel like you articulated... Yeah, something so important. And what I've just... It's validating for me because I feel the sustainability has been something that I've been coming back to time and time again. It is one of your keywords, for sure. When I see people doing certain things on social media, I'm like... oh my God, that is not sustainable, right? It's not sustainable energetic wise, capacity wise. Like you said, like, you know, so many people where it's affecting their livelihood, like that's not sustainable, right? So there's just, there's a lot, there's so many layers, you know, to it. And I think, so sustainability is a big thing. And what I hear you, or what I'm sort of hearing is like, when you shame somebody into doing something and then they, cause I, I remember early on, there was this notion of, I want to be on the right side of history or you, you need to be on the right side of history. And that's a shaming frame, you know, like that's framed with a lot of shame. And so then it has people like you said, doing things that maybe are just performative. Right. And so when we talk about like performative activism, um, it can kind of lend itself to be like, oh, I don't want to be on the wrong side of history. So I'm going to do this without really maybe even taking the time to, like you said, what are my values? Is this in alignment with my values? Is this in alignment with my capacity? This is not a short. I've always said this is not a sprint. This is a marathon, right? Like we're talking free Palestine forever. That's that is a huge task. you know and and really when we say free Palestine we're saying free all of us right because because we're so all our liberation is so interconnected um and so it's it does lend itself because I think you know we said okay back in October November and now we're in you know mid-January and you do see energy dying down because I think so much of that early energy was performative because there was no um um I i keep thinking there's not an infrastructure to sustain these actions right like like I'm even thinking like the infrastructure like you know those advocate people who do advocacy work their lives are already kind of on the cusp of unsustainable given like the resources that they have you know and so I think about us and we're striking next week yeah and they're at the university and there's a a sense that we have all this time and leisure and pleasure and power oh Get an extra week off. But choosing to be in women's studies or gender and ethnic studies means we're choosing to be like an advocacy work, which doesn't get paid the big bucks, you know. Already. It doesn't. It hardly gets paid a living wage. Yeah. And other advocates, too. It's so similar. Right. You know. And so then when they're asked to. give more to, to risk that, to ask, like essentially we're barely getting paid what we deserve. And now we're going to go on strike, which means they can dock our pay, right. Which is going to have a direct impact on our ability to pay bills. Right. Um, And so it is a big thing to ask, right, to say. But I think what's so different about our union, right, this is a long established union, is that there's infrastructure and resources to support that strike, right? To say, hey, if you're going to be on the picket lines, we're going to feed you. We're going to bus you in, right? There's a strike fund, right? So people who are really in dire need can apply for the strike fund and get funds from the union to be able to support themselves, right? So good. I didn't know any of this. There's this there's this infrastructure built around these actions. And I feel like I mean, maybe this is part of a different or longer conversation, but I feel like that's what we need. Right. That's what creates sustainability is to create infrastructure around our actions rather than shame. But I want to get back to you talking about like social media and it's it's almost like social media is it's good in that it has brought us together in ways that, you know, we couldn't imagine it's been able to mobilize. It's interesting because people talk about like 9-11 and I think. i don't know it's been an interesting conversation to reflect on that but people saying well were people protesting against the u.s actions in the middle east after 9 11. and I said yes they were but because social media didn't exist at the time you didn't have the same kind of mobilization that's happening now right so had we had social media then we might have seen more um bigger actions around that so yeah it's it's interesting to see what social media has done and then on the other hand it's created this I think false sense of community and connection like you said you know that we met once And we, you know, we might align, but we don't really, we're not really like speaking, right? And I think that's, there's, I keep saying there is a lack of like community. I think social media has this thinking we're in community because we're all reposting each other and we're like... It is a kind of community, but it is not like... Are we actually like having conversations with each other? And so I've, like I said, I've been having conversations with people who are feeling shamed for... what is being perceived as being as being silent even though I know what their values are I know how they step up in their own lives in their own ways but because they're not posting publicly they they're feeling this shame and um or they're feeling shamed and I think um For me, I've been thinking a lot about like, so what's the alternative, right? Like you said, if shame is productive in the short term, but it's not sustainable, then what's the alternative? And I feel like rather than saying you should be posting, it's like, hey- I wonder why you're not posting. Is there support that you need to be able to, you know, stand into your voice? You know what I mean? Like, I feel like that's a better way to, but you have to be in community with somebody. Yeah. And an interesting relationship with somebody to even be able to have that conversation. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I know a few people who I know are very values aligned who haven't been posting, but they have been having a lot of conversations with people, whether it's in just their Instagram community or not. And I think we can even take it a step back to be like, hey, I'm just checking in with people who are values aligned with me. I know a lot's happening, and I just wanted to see how you were doing and where you were at with this. Because even I feel like that before even posting, it's just like, well, where are you at with this? Because it's true. There are people who are... you know, like, decolonial but are pro-israel you know I mean that that exists right like and not so much to be like oh I'm gonna cancel you but just to like get to understand it's like well what's going on or maybe you're just someone who's very connected to a specific community where posting is not something you want to do but you're completely willing to have a conversation and that person is taking action in their own ways like cool like I don't think social media is the only way to do it. There's people who are not on social media who are very active, you know, in this world. But like you said, it has given us a way to mobilize. You know, I've never done political organizing, so I'm not going to directly speak to that. But when I know I know people, a lot of people who do political organizing work, And there is so much that happens, like you said, in terms of that infrastructure, whether that's for a union, whether that's toward a specific political cause that is actually about that infrastructure. And, you know, I've seen these calls on the Internet, even from Palestinians, and I'm all about listening to Palestinian voices to call for a general strike, like do this for a week. and I'm not saying like that's good or bad but what I'm saying is if that's not really organized or sustainable it might disrupt things like momentarily but is it actually going to create once again sustainable change and like I've been saying that I'm trying to like knock like palestinians of all people who might be on the ground like suffering like in real time But I also get curious about, okay, like, let's do this. But there's people who, like, okay, general strike, like, a week off. I mean, they may not be able to do that, like, from a realistic perspective. And maybe there's something we need to do. Maybe there needs to be more union organizing at the workplace so that people can do that. Because if you're just one person in a workplace taking strikes that day... Is that, you know, and I'm saying this actually very recently. I have a friend who actually just posted about this. So I don't want to take. I sent it to you, right? It's for next week. There's like. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm like, OK, like I won't go to the bank. I won't. But I'm just like, I mean, it's not like I'm against that idea, but I'm curious, like, OK, what's again, sustainability? Yeah. And I'm like, am I supposed to feel bad if I don't do this? You know what I mean? Exactly. But. yeah so there's just yeah there's just so many so I I mean you're you're saying exactly what I've been thinking not saying because I agree I it it does totally the the general strike um that's being called for is in alignment with our strike so I'm like oh cool we're already striking so but it's but like you said the sustainability of it because it's like okay so we're not like you said not gonna go do these things but we still need to do those things. So are we just going to wait until after like, so it's not really, it's not really dismantling or it's not really like hurting the system because we have, we actually have to, what are long-term ways to divest from the system altogether beyond just the week. Right. And I think that's where more attention should be or not. Again, we're not trying to, I think like you said, Palestinians who are on the ground, are trying to just figure out a way to survive. And I think that that's fair. And I think for those of us who are not in that urgency should be the ones saying, hey, let's let us do the work of like organizing around this so that we can create more sustainable long-term solutions to this, you know, even after, right? Or whatever after means, right? But I think you're right. I think we do have to look at, yeah, just look at, yeah, organizing a lot more around these issues. And instead of shaming people, like you said, like, should I feel bad for not participating in it? It's like, well... I mean, I don't think so. There's people who can't do that. And again, it's a larger question. How are we participating in it? There is many different avenues. And are we creating alternatives? So if we're not going to go to big banks, okay, are we creating alternatives for that? Are we creating alternatives from shopping at wherever we're shopping at? or on Amazon, right? Like, are we not just creating alternatives, but are we like supporting those, you know, things? And it's difficult. This strikes me as the conversation with Menachi, and I don't know if you've met Menachi either, but thinking about like decolonial, decolonizing violent communication, nonviolent communication, because this would be the response, you know, like, when you say you need to strike, I'm say, are you going to pay my bills? You know, like, are you going to feed my children? You know, that that's, or are we going to, and it's not even like, are you going to take care of my children? Are we going to come together as a community to care for each other's children so that those of us who have to work can go. And those of us who, you know, it's, it's, I think it is it's a it's a it's a it's a and I love the the word you use curiosity right like how can we be curious about rather than again that shit that that that violent communicate right it is about non-violent communication instead of saying you should be ashamed doing or doing this it's how can how can I help you to yeah or like what's going on you know like I mean, I think, you know, one thing, one example I like to give, and, you know, I grew up vegetarian and I'm not like, you know, I tried being vegan for a little bit and I'm not, again, I'm not like knocking anyone who's vegan, but there's this idea. It's like, if we were all vegetarian, then that would save the earth. And it's like, we won't all do one thing. That's just not what's going to happen. Because to do that is actually, to say that is actually very transactional. To say like, let's all just have a strike. It's transactional in the sense that we're not actually doing the work to get to the deeper thing where it's just like, okay, I can't strike. Why is that? I can't strike because I have my own business. I have to pay my bills. And if I want to actually support the people, again, send them eSIMs, do things to support them. Don't I need to have money? Like, I mean, there's so many inter... relations here and where whether it's about money or others you know what I mean like who our friends are who our employers are and so to just say just stop doing this like to stop having meat it's like there's people who in their lineages there's just so much there that's connected to certain types of foods that's just to say cut off from that like that isn't relational to me you know So I think it's like, it's really hard because in an urgent situation, sometimes we need to slow down. And social media has a way of- It doesn't lend itself to slowing down. But it doesn't lend itself to slowing down, exactly. So again, I'm not going to say like social media is bad or anything. Like I've met amazing friends through social media and made amazing connections where I can meet them in real life and actually ask them these questions, you know? This relational way of being is kind of, I juxtapose with, I keep on thinking of Audre Lorde's like the master's house, the master's tools, you know, like, and, and, you know, this very Puritan, what is the purity culture, purity culture way of thinking of, um, there's one way, you know, it sounds so monotheistic, mono, you know, perspective when we are such a diverse, you know, population. Um, And yeah, I just, as you were saying, like, I have to do it this way. I just, you know, think of all the horror, 1984, all these like sci-fi novels around. Yeah. And I think this in the beginning, Renee, like in terms of like wanting to like have like a voice of reason. And it's like, I, too, was like, oh, my God, who has the right thing to say? But it's like, I don't know. Is there one right thing to say right now? Like, emotions are really high. And that makes sense. Like, this is wild. This is extractive. This is tragic. This is devastating and heartbreaking. Yeah. how much reason am I going to have right now? You know, how much reason can we expect others to have? And so that might lead to being like, why aren't you saying anything? It's going to lead to a lot of this stuff. So even though I don't think it's sustainable, I want to have compassion for the people who are shaming others. Even shame, I mean, you know, a dear friend reached out to me being like, well, I also think like we have to shame our leaders. Okay, fair. Like, I'm not, is that going to do anything? I'm not sure. But like, I think that it serves an emotional purpose for us. We might get something out of our systems. We might be saying like, our leaders need to listen to us. Like we are there. Like we, they work for us, like completely agree. Those are the people to be called out. If there's people to be called out instead of called in, it is those. It's the people in power. Those are the people who can actually do something, you know? Um, while we're flailing around being like, what is going on? And at the same time, you know, at the same time, I do think that like that slowing down also needs to happen. And we just didn't think about this stuff, you know, like not to label things good or bad. I mean, don't get me wrong. Like when I look at this, I'm like bad. This is very bad. Right, right, right, right. Yeah. There's, um, Yeah, definitely. So, yeah, there's just like a lot of different layers. And I think it's very complex and we want to make it easy because we wanted to stop and go away. I mean, I do, too. But I mean, I'm not here to say like the issue is complex to me. It very much is not like I'm not I'm not going to say that. But I think what is complex is how people feel about it, you know. and how people relate to it. That is what is complex. Like the issue itself is to me is pretty cut and dry, you know, about what's happening here. And yeah, the whole right side of history thing I thought was interesting. I've not really been saying that. Not because, I mean, I do have like a belief about what I want to happen, but I do think it could be shamey. And it also kind of leads to that like one answer thing that you were just talking about. But don't know you know so I'm questioning that I'm curious about it too yeah I think wait you know coming back to like social media and sort of like the pros and cons right like it's it's done so much good but also And I think it's, you know, when I teach my classes and, you know, I'm talking, this is, these are Gen Zers, right? Like, so they live on social media. There is no world outside of social media. And so it's like, we can't, it's like telling them, it's like when you tell people the purity culture, like don't have sex instead of saying, I know you're going to have sex. So let's have safe sex, right? Or let's talk about safe sex. I think it's a conversation with that. How do we use social media as a tool, not the only tool? And how do we have critical literacy around it? It's not saying social media, we're just going to throw it out the window altogether. But it's to say, how do we use it in a way that's healthy and safe and not destructive? Because I think... God forbid you go into a comment section, you know, in social media. I don't even look. I see a post and I'm like, oh, this sounds good. And then I go into the comment section and I'm like, oh, okay, well. It's totally road rage in the comment section. Totally. Or it's someone who says something great and then someone's like, oh, but this person's problematic in this way. And you're like, oh, should I not listen to this? Does this have no value then? Like the whole cancer culture, all that stuff comes into play. Yeah. I mean, I think one thing that also I've gotten from this is that it's, you know, there are people who are leading, you know, who are bigger voices in this movement. And I have been doing my best to listen to them. And I also think that there is always, no matter what the cause is, no matter what someone's position on it, is there's always a danger in pedestalizing people. Oh, yes. Right? Like, they're human. Everyone's human and fallible. And... You know, social media, like, you know, I don't have like a massive following or anything, but like the more I'm being seen, it's like the more projections come on to me and you start feeling a different sense of responsibility or accountability because you have to answer to everybody when I'm still a person. And it's like celebrity culture. It's like there's still people, you know what I mean? Like, yeah. So like comes hand in hand with like a savior complex like this. Right. It's almost like. yeah but yeah exactly that instinct is is something that is important yeah hard yeah and it's and it's something I i definitely I i love how you were trying to say pedestalizing I always say romanticizing right like we romanticize um you know even even our like mlk jr right we pedestalize him we romanticize him and I mean didn't him and his wife have some like didn't he cheat on his wife I mean no totally yeah you know like I love malcolm x and he was really misogynistic I mean there's just a lot of people right yeah I mean I think about that like with chair right people talk about chat as this like revolutionary I'm like oh Talk about misogyny. Right. Like and so I think it's like and it's and it's again, it's not like you said, it's not to say that some of their work isn't valuable, but it's to understand it within its larger context. Right. And to like not romanticize and to remind people. ourselves of everybody's humanity. And I think, you know, something that you said and I think something we've been leaning on a lot is like empathy, right? Like for those who are doing the shaming, empathy because they're coming from a place of desperation and urgency. And for those who are staying silent, empathy, right? Because they're probably working through something, right? And like you said, those who I think for me really Something that's been coming up for me is just there's this language even, and we don't have to get too much into this, but like around Zionism and like anti-Zionism and all this stuff and then looking and seeing Zionism as... a part of purity culture too or a part of like an ideology right you know or indoctrination and and having empathy right for it's like when we have empathy for christian fundamentalists I knew you were gonna mention that I was like that's the hardest part for me you know it's not to say we don't hold them accountable or we don't it's okay let me make it even easier men right like it's not to say we don't want to hold men accountable for their actions but it's also recognizing where do those actions come from right and having empathy for the fact that they are also hurt little boys that are projecting maybe the violence or the hurt that was inflicted on them right and and that's when we get into these cycles of violence and I think we disrupt those cycles with empathy by saying like again not with not accountability right now I'm saying like okay it's okay that you did this harmful thing but to say I understand where that harmful thing comes from and let's address that because that's the root cause of the problem to begin with um and anyway for me it's there's just for me I've been really trying it's much easier thank you to lean into like empathy, right? Like let's have empathy for where everybody's, like you said, it is such a sensitive topic. And I think we have to be mindful, you know, it's like a minefield out there. It's so tricky to say to have empathy for the oppressor is, you know, to people who have survived the oppressor, you know, is like, You don't want to say that to everyone. You know, that's the thing. I mean, I think, you know, it's like, well, you know, similar to Audre Lorde or the idea of like the oppressed can become the oppressor. Right. And intersectionality. Right. So we know that we are sometimes simultaneously both oppressed and oppressor. Right. Or both oppressed and privileged. And it's just understanding that dynamic. Right. Right. It's just saying like, hey, yeah, you know, we know we're all in these like cycles of oppression. And I understand the idea of like having empathy for the oppressor or like, do we shame the oppressor? But I mean, like. the way I see it is at the end of the day, who's at the top of all this food chain? Yeah. Rich, white, straight, cis men. So that's, I'm thinking about these circles, right? Like the, the personal, the mace, the micro, the meso, the macro, you know, all these community levels and how social media is on this huge level. And we're trying to have a conversation about this at that level. And I actually think that's almost impossible to have, or, you know, it's really, well, we can have a conversation about having empathy for the oppressor when it is like, my dad you know or you know um at this level right at this very personal level we can get into that you know yeah and I think that's why um again coming back to like community and interpersonal interactions just human to human connection like you said the real I love when you say relational we have to be in relation if we're going to have liberation I mean, it's a good one, you know? Title of the thing. Title of the episode. That sounds like a tattoo, to be quite honest. I kind of like that. I feel like that's what I've been lacking. Like, I'm like, are we checking it? Like, okay, so we're reposting each other, but are we actually sending a text to the people we know in real life? Right. The people we know in real life, you know, are we are we are we checking in? I've been doing that because I'm like, you know, I'm like, maybe, you know, there is fear. I think sometimes posting publicly in a way that I've never felt fear before for so many reasons, you know. for so many reasons. But so I'm like, but if I can't, if I don't feel courage enough to post so many things publicly, I can check in on my friends. Right. And I can say like, how's it going? How you doing? What do we do? How do we build the revolution together, you know? And I think it's... You have been great at that. I want to, like, just... You have been so good with me, but also in our community, the messages, the chats. I'm, like, desperately just... Because that's the only way I can... Yeah. Find grounding. Yeah. You know, is like those basic human to human interactions. But I want to get to something too. We also want to talk about coming back to like our work, right? That the other part of this is I, and cause I have a, we obviously we have a lot of academic friends and I had a friend reach out to me. I checked in on her. I was like, Hey, how's it going? How you doing? Are you okay? Are you holding up? You know, this was like in the middle of last semester and, Cancer. Pisces cancer. And she was like, how do you... And I remember we had the same conversation when Trump got elected. And she's like, what do we do? What do we do in this moment? And I was like, girl... We've been in this work for a long time and we just do what we've been doing and we keep doing it. Right. And but it's hard not to when moments like this happen and our work is already innately I would say part of the revolution, right? Is already innately liberatory work, decolonial work. It's hard not to be like, like you said, we have to do more, but then that leads to burnout and that's not sustainable. I think there's another element to this. When we talk about, um, uh this conversation around shame and things like that I think purity culture savior complex it's this armageddon you know it's all very very kind of like you know old old testament old far father shit you know like because this belief that that's the last piece and you throw that in there and then everyone has to like step into savior mode step into like you know like Like we're living in the apocalypse. Yes, it's apocalypticizing. Sorry, I didn't want to try it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's where the sense of urgency comes from. It's like the world is ending. And so we don't have time to pause and think and do anything. We have to go into go mode, right? Without recognizing... We may be living in the apocalypse, but it's going to take a long time. The F and N times, people, if it's not, you know. And that, again, actually, it actually says this is not sustainable because it's going to end, right? Like, we don't have to have something for our children or because it's just the end. Maybe that's white supremacy convincing us that it's apocalyptic. Anyway, anyway. But I want to hear you speak to like, you know, coming back to your work too, right? Like how do we, maybe we are looking for answers. Like how do we do what we do on a daily, but also in this moment without burning out? Yeah. Such a good question. You know, I, when all of this, I would say started, because obviously this stuff is happening before October 7th, but when it started, ignited, I should say. I was glued to my screen and thinking about stuff. It's interesting. I feel like my work, just like you said, it's liberatory work. But at the same time, I was like, what does my work even matter? In this moment. Yeah. You know what I mean? I had that feeling where I'm like, okay, I'm helping someone with their mother wound, but what is happening over here? Yeah. You know, at that point, I was like, I have a deep mother wound, but I'm just like, I want to call my mom and be like, yo, do you see what's happening? Like, that didn't even feel like a factor, you know, in those moments. So it's really interesting. And I think... you know, knowing that we do inherently do that work. Sometimes we just need distance from that. And I think honestly giving ourselves, I mean, I feel like this is an easy answer, but I think it makes sense. Just self-compassion that in those moments, we are people who do this work because we deeply feel for others. And when I got to a dark place, my partner was like, I was just like, I mean, I got to a really dark place. I even started having vertigo and is actually when I had to start putting my phone away because And cause I'm looking at so many of the images and I, I had guilt cause I'm just like, Oh, I'm not supposed to look away. You know, I'm having vertigo. Like I, your body was talking to you. Like, how can I show up for anything if I'm like spinning, you know? And, um, and he was like you are a deeply feeling person so when we're deeply feeling people who do this work because we care then it makes sense that we might be like we need to do more you know um I mean there might be some scarcity there that's like colonial like I mean that's always creeping up right and I think just having self-compassion that's like yeah I am a deeply feeling person and that is informing like maybe how I am shaming myself or maybe my guilt. And, um, you know, I think, you know, one thing I mentioned about guilt specifically is that guilt is a useful emotion in that if we do, if we cause harm and did something wrong in some way, guilt drives us to repair. That's a good thing. And so while I didn't, I'm not, you know, bulldozing people in front of hospitals myself and, I'm not directly causing harm. There is the whole idea that we are still complicit in all of this. Then what is my responsibility? What are the things I can tangibly do and keep doing in a sustainable way? What are my gifts to... Maybe I'm not the person who's going out on the streets all the time. I have a chronic foot injury. I haven't been able to go to anything because I... You know, we're in L.A. There's not easy public transportation. We just hop out. Right. Go home. Like, you know, I've and I felt a lot of guilt that I'm like, I'm not on the ground. I'm like, I can do other things that are supportive. And I mean, in a way, that's how we got connected. And even if I feel like I'm not doing enough, I think having these conversations and reflecting back to each other shows how we're interdependent, shows how we need each other, because we can really chastise ourselves and really shame ourselves and feel terrible about ourselves when we're we are doing work that's inherently liberatory. So I think really having that self-compassion, knowing that it makes sense that we might feel terrible, and also knowing that there are some things that we can tangibly do. Am I going to single-handedly subvert capitalism and colonialism? Probably not. And there's something, there's magic in the community of people who are willing to do this work in different ways. Because, you know, there's different roles in activism. Like, not all of us have to be in the streets. Not all of us have to be doing certain things. There's people who are very good at that. And I'm very good at other things. So I'm just going to try to keep doing that as much as I can. So, yeah, I don't know if that answered the questions. I love the way that you talk. I can see that beautiful Libra stallion. Yeah. You have just such an organized way, balanced way of thinking and articulating. I was going to say the Virgo, the Sagittarius, the Leo and the Libra. That's like a very, I mean, the Libra is always a good balance. My husband's a Libra and thank God or else I would be. Yeah. I would be in my emotions all the time. But no, everything you're saying is totally, we're going to be doing our book club next week on the book, Social Change Now, the author Deepa Iyer. And she talks- directly about that, right? Like how do we find our role in the ecosystem? And, but I think that self-compassion part is so important because we do get in those like guilt, shame, you know, spirals. And like you said, when you, you know, vertigo, my body does the same thing when there's too much. I mean, I was you know, right before the holidays, I started to feel something. And I feel like I just recovered from all of that. Like last week, you know, after I started taking melatonin to go to sleep, cause I wasn't getting sleep, you know? And, um, but it's in that it's, and since being able to get sleep and, um, kind of see clearly I'm better able to step into what I want to do you know from a place that feels right or feels like oh this is this is where my gifts can shine and and I think it's a reminder that if we like you said if if you're having vertigo how can you step up anyway like we can't do anything if our bodies are literally not able to do so It's interesting the gifts of the – I'm going to group you in here, the 40-somethings, you know, bodies. I don't know if that's right. My body does talk to me in a stronger way, you know. And there are – like, you know, they say that the stress affects your body. They've said that to me my whole life. And I'm like, okay, it's real. We need to, like – I need to be there, you know, for my kid when he's grown up, I need to like be able to walk. I also have an injury that I'm healing from and like creating those spaces so that those needs, you know, of this body that I have right here, you know, so that it can meet the needs of other people, you know, like that was your tag, right? That help helpers like helping themselves, themselves, you know, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think too, like, you know, again, just kind of in the conversations that I've been having with friends and I try to remind people, like, especially those with children, like, especially those who've decided to... Who are caretakers. Who are caretakers, but, you know, who want to parent in different ways, right? Like in decolonial ways. And I'm like, that's just being able to like feed your kid. And not yell at them. Like just being able to go a day parenting kids. I'm like, sometimes that's enough. That's what you got to do. And it's so hard. But that self-compassion part is important and sometimes the hardest part. yes the hardest part like it's so easy to be like when she comes to me with stuff I'm like you just got it's okay like you you know you trying to give her permission to like feel feelings but then I don't even do that for myself right yeah we have each other to be that mirror and exactly and that's so important that's so important that's what I tell my coaching clients I'm like you are the best authority on yourself and I'm here to be a mirror for you because we need each other like I'm not going to figure out things in my head at three in the morning when I'm in bed. Like, let's face it. have we ever figured it out at three in the morning when we're spinning like probably not um you know I remember um something that's coming through to me right now is um you know toy smith she does a like business like strategy but she's very anti-capitalist um I don't know if you are familiar with her but she had an email once where she's like you know she's done a lot of really great work for like um single black mothers like raising like a lot of money to support them um through like mutual aid and um in one email she wrote, you know what? I'm not trying to save the world. I'm trying to pay attention to the 500 feet around me. And that really like said something to me. Like, what about the colonizer in my head? What about how I'm in my relationships when I react strongly to someone when I'm like, whoa, why did I do that? Like, how is that colonial? You know? So really thinking about the oppressor within my, excuse me, within myself, what's happening and like, I think that that's really, really important. And I'm not saying like, don't care about the world or whatever, but like that is going to impact the world. I mean, I'm not a parent, but I can imagine being a parent. It's like these young ones are going to be growing up in this world and be responsible for, you know, also a world where like climate change is like, right. Like, sorry not to bring it up, but you know what I mean? It's weird. We know they're going to have a responsibility at that point. Right. So like and, you know, I also think about that with my content. And, you know, you know, it's funny, like as you were saying, like voice of reason, you're like, then you saw my reel. And I was like, what? That was when I was looking for a voice of reason. And it's like. That's why we do what we do so we can share and hear stuff from others, because that is shaping our reality. That is what brought us here together today. And that's going to now when you put this out, hopefully other people will see something and make even an extension or a different type of relationship. And like, I hope so. I wish I could hear all about it, you know. So that impact is definitely possible and it's out there. And I have to I have to believe that, you know, in order. Yeah. Not just to keep doing my work, but just to know that that hope is there. I mean, there's that book by Miriam Kaba, We Do This Till We Free Us. And she says, hope is a discipline. And I really try to... yeah right it's really awesome oh that's good like hope is it discipline and when I think of the word discipline it's not always a positive connotation but I try to remember the root word is disciple I'm like so how am I a disciple to hope how am I like learning from it how can I be a teacher of it like all of the different relationships and levels of that Yeah. Oh, I hope it's what I desperately hold on to. Like you said, we are well aware of the world our kids are going to inherit. And I feel sometimes very like, yeah, a few months ago I had a breakdown of like, what did I do to bring the kids into this world? And then I see them and I see the things that they say and do and I'm like, oh, we're good. Yeah. My oldest son, he's an environmentalist at heart. He loves animals and trees and nature. He gets upset when there's litter. We were at the Arboretum and he's like, he put, you know, he picked up this little thing and he's like, I was like, just put in your pocket until we find a trash can. But so I, and I think our students too, when I see my students come in with such enthusiasm and access to information, I'm like, oh, okay. I'm like, we're good. Like that gives me, you know, so much hope. And I think it's hard when other people will say things like, these young people, you know, like there's this very, like, I don't know, condescending, you know, their values are different. And I'm like, no, I think the kids are going to, I like, I think I have hope because like, I love the hope is a discipline. I, I have blind faith in hope. I mean, you know, I just do. I just, you know, it's the only thing that I can, you know, that can be that beacon. Yeah. Jaguar said to me the other day, I think I told you when I was crying about something and he's like, it's okay, mama. I cried today too. You know, like, and I think that's, that's what, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's it. Right. That's the relational piece that I'm modeling it for us. Yeah. They're gonna, you know, they'll be the, the culture bears and, you know, they'll take on the, The next phase of revolution and liberation. So what does the, you know, senora or, like, doña, you know, advocacy look like? In our old age? To be, you know, in our 50s and 60s, you know, as, what is that, you know? Like, I don't know. Honestly, I'm hoping that we get to be on an island. Right. Or just like do the home together and just. Yes. And you youngins go and do it. And you can come visit us for our words of wisdom. Yes. And our medicine. But we're going to be chilling. Yeah. Well, I even think like, you know. you know, I love like trees and I love thinking about metaphors about trees. It's like, we're just going to keep growing branches and reaching out and just be further extensions and extrapolations of ourselves. And I think even like with hope, it's like, it's almost like there's no choice. I have to have hope because what I love and who I am. And I mean, it sounds like who both of you are. It's just like people who believe in these principles and therefore there has to be hope for it. Like there is no choice. So that having that discipline to remember that, you know, is, yeah, it's like the remembering of it, I think is really important too. Yeah. But I think it's hard though. Oh, it's, it's hard. Oh yeah. It's hard. Such a wonderful conversation. Great place to, to like land. And yeah, cause I was, I try to do that with my students. Sometimes I'm like, I spend the whole semester telling him how shitty the world is. And then I'm like, no, but there's hope. You guys go out there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I always have to remind myself, let's end on hope, end on hope, end on hope. But tell us and tell our listeners where they can find you, how they can be in touch. Yeah, so I'm most active on Instagram. My handle is healinghypegirl. I love to hype up that healing for y'all. And then my website is NishaLand.com because who doesn't want to go to Nisha Land? I always sign up for my newsletter because there is social media, but I own my newsletter. So if you go to my website, there'll be a pop up for you to get a free values workbook because values are really important to me. And then you'll be added to my email list. So, yeah, those are the main places you can find me. Thank you so much. When is your birthday exactly? Can I ask you that? Oh, yeah. September 6th. Oh, I'm the fourth. I'm like, I need a year. Nice. That's awesome. Thank you. I love it. Thank you so much. This has been so validating, so needed. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, for myself too. So thank you so much for the invitation and for even just having this conversation and introducing it. I think it's so important. Awesome.
