Hello, hello.
Hi, everyone.
Welcome to Las Autoras podcast.
We are so excited to have a guest on.
Oh my gosh, I'm like, now that my thing is up close, I'm like, I should put some glasses on.
Okay.
Okay.
I know I'm like um yeah let's let's we're so excited to have our guests on I feel like this season has been um all the guests that we just like want to talk with like we're like what do we want to talk about I don't know but we just want to talk to you we want to talk with them whatever everybody to hear the convo so without further ado our guest please introduce yourself welcome yeah
Hey, y'all.
My name is Pia Schiavo Campo.
My pronouns are she, her.
And I am a person who does a lot in the world, who's always sort of evolving.
Right now, I am a partner with a small communications and marketing agency called Momentum Solutions Team.
And we primarily work with nonprofits and foundations.
and sort of helping them to tell their stories in an ethical way and really build their capacity to be able to better serve their constituents.
Um, and yeah, so that's, that's what I've been doing for the last seven years.
And, um, recently sort of took a pause from a blog that I had been writing and advocacy that I had been doing around body liberation and, um, fat politics.
So, um,
Yeah, this is the space I'm in is...
Constant evolution.
A slash of Pia.
Yes, a slash of Pia.
Yes, I love it.
Tell us if you want to share anything of your astrology or your ancestry.
Yeah.
So astrology, I don't know a lot about it.
I just know that I'm a Virgo and I am such a Virgo.
Let's see.
Ancestry.
So in terms of my ancestry, I'm actually adopted.
But my...
adoptive parents who both have passed away recently.
My mom's African American.
My father was Sicilian.
And it's interesting because I have a relationship with both my birth parents.
I was able to find them after many years.
So my mother is Italian and my father's African American, which is so bizarre.
It's so weird.
I'm like, what is, what is going on right now?
So it was when I eventually found that it was like very affirming.
And I actually was just on the East coast and saw my, my bio dad spent some time with him.
So I'm learning more about my actual biological ancestry.
And that has been really, really cool.
Yeah.
That is so interesting, right?
Like it's like, it's like the ancestors knew who you needed.
It's so weird.
Yeah.
I'm so lucky though.
Yeah, it's beautiful.
And then tell us, it sounds like you know some human design.
We're learning.
We're both generators.
And I'd love to, yeah, what can you say?
What's your human design?
So my human design is I'm a manifesting generator.
And so I only learned about human design when we were in our cohort together with June and I'm super fascinated.
And I had actually started a whole Instagram around it, which, you know, because I'm a manifesting generator, I was like, Oh, this was fun.
Okay.
Now I'm over it.
And I'm moving on.
Cause that's what many gents do is like, they get super passionate and then they move in like quantum leap to get things done.
And then like,
I've done it.
I'm good.
And then I'm ready to move on to the next thing.
So it's helping me like really understand who I am because all my life, I feel like, especially my parents and maybe even my own self judgment about like not always sticking to things for a long time.
And now I understand that it's because this is how I was, this is how I was built is I was built to master a lot of things and then explore.
And so, you know, I, I'm,
I love that.
It's affirming to know that about myself.
Yeah.
I imagine that kind of gave you the confirmation around letting go of mixed fat chick for a while or for now or for whatever, right?
Like in moving into the next stage.
Yeah, you know, it was a long time coming.
And I placed a lot of judgment on myself.
I was like, oh, I'm abandoning this.
And I'm like, you know what?
I gave it 12 years.
That's a quarter of my life.
Do the math.
And so it's just kind of like, I have other things that I want to do and other things I want to say.
And there are so many incredible people who are still actively doing this work.
You know, I think it's always going to be a part of, you know, my identity in some way.
But it just was time for something new.
And, you know, it was just like after my father died last year, I just needed that quiet time.
And then I was like, yeah, I think I'm done.
I'm ready to put it down.
It's okay.
Yeah.
Yeah, I had a few things, you know, as you were saying that, you know, when you were like, I gave it 12 years.
And I think there's, I don't know if this is generational, but I think there's this perception that we're supposed to have either some job or some career or some thing that we just commit our whole lives to, right?
And we're just on this path.
But, you know, both historically and especially as we go into a different era,
you know, future, I think that it actually is very common for people to kind of completely switch careers many times in their lives.
And I think, I think as, as, you know, people raised by, you know, in communities of color and I think in, you know, working class communities, we're so used to this idea of like, you get the one job and you get, or you get that one career and like you stay, you know,
committed to that retirement yeah and I think that that's you know I you know I read something somewhere where it's like you're supposed to have like seven different careers in your lifetime so I think it's great to like normalize that and I think the truth too is that
as we go into the future, those jobs, those lifelong jobs don't even exist anymore.
So we have to kind of be willing to shift and pivot and like have different abilities, you know, to, to do work or, you know, and I, and I don't mean work in a capitalist way, but yeah,
calling your life calling right and i think um so i was thinking about that and the other thing i was thinking about like you as a manifesting generator i love the affirmation same right like as for me astrology has been so affirming because i'm a triple water sign right cancer sun cancer moon pisces rising and i'm like oh right that's why i feel everything
And that's why it's really hard for me to move through emotions when I think there was a time when it was like, oh, I was just being too sensitive or I was whatever.
And so it feels so nice to be like, no, this is just a part of who I am.
And how do I lean into that?
How do I use it as a gift?
And when you're saying you put a lot of effort into something and I'm like, that's the project starter, right?
Yeah.
And I think instead of seeing it as like, oh, I just go all in and then, you know, move to something else.
And that's why we're supposed to be in community, right?
Because if you're the manifesting generator, then, you know, the other people are supposed to come in, right?
You're the idea.
You're the person.
Like, here's what we're going to do.
Here's how we're going to do it.
Now you all go do it, right?
Yeah.
That's your place in, you know, and we've been talking a lot about like the ecosystem, right?
Like what's the ecosystem, particularly around like social change and social justice, right?
Like, yeah, you're the idea person.
And then you're not meant to be there forever and be, you know, like doing, you're meant to be like, okay, now what's the next idea, right?
That we can like move forward.
So I think it's-
Yeah.
Interesting.
Given the Virgo-ness too.
Cause I think a fellow Virgo here, you know, like it's hard for me to let go of things.
Like I have definitely put my nose to like the grindstone and completed tasks of how to have a doctorate and everything.
And, and looking back, I think I, I could have taken a pause at some point and been like,
is that really what I want to do?
You know, like how can I, you know, what's the next thing?
And so I think the gift of Renee for me is all of the emotion.
And I'm hearing, I'm feeling a similar gift with you, Pia, and like hearing the story of letting go of something, giving so much time and then moving into something new.
I think it's beautiful.
Gifts, truly.
And I really relate to the sensitive.
I'm highly sensitive, highly empathetic, intuitive.
And growing up, like I was always sort of made fun of for being sensitive and crying all the time.
And it wasn't until really in the last like maybe five, maybe 10 years that I realized that my sensitivity and vulnerability are a tremendous gift.
And that I wear my heart on my sleeve and I don't apologize for being sensitive.
And that I'm seeing people say, I wish I had that.
I wish I had even an ounce of that.
And my vulnerability allows other people to be vulnerable.
And that has been such an incredible gift.
You know, I mean, I just...
I don't know.
It's, it's interesting because I can, I can be a private person, but also I'm like, I just be putting all my shit out there.
Like I fucked this up and I messed that up and I love this.
I totally hear you on the, I was just thinking about this the other day, how like, you know, Christine and I have this public platform and we do all this work, but I also really enjoy anonymity and,
So I do get a little strange.
Like if we ever have, like I've been, we've been recognized in certain.
I mean, we're generators.
I think that's part of it.
Like we're not as the manifesting, like when we see our manifestors and our manifesting generators out there, we're like,
Yeah.
We celebrate you, but we, you want to be like, you want to be like, you want to be, I don't know.
It's this weird.
Like I just struggle with like, I want to keep my anonymity, but I also want to like do my shit.
And I am a put my shit out there kind of person too.
I'm very transparent.
And, and I, and I love to like you, Christina, you were talking about like, what are the gifts of, of being in community with different types of people and,
For you to say like you're unapologetic about it, like I'm working on that.
Like that's really hard for me because I'm not the people pleaser in me is like like I want to be.
And I think I am.
You know, I think or at least people perceive me as this like outspoken person.
But then I'm like outspoken and then I'm like, oh, God.
Like, oh, God, did I?
It comes back to our family stories, Renee.
Yeah, it's definitely some trauma.
And I think all that, you know, we were talking before we started recording about, like,
like what the moment that we're in and you know just um I love how you were like so clear you're like this is my this is me like here's where I'm at I wish yeah yeah so tell us I mean tell us again where what where are you where are we what's what's happening
You know, I think that's just so much fuckery.
I mean, and it's not like it's new fuckery, but I think it's just in this particular moment as we're entering an election year here and there are no good candidates, not even the one who's currently in office because he's continuing to fund a genocide.
I, I, it's like I vacillate between like deep, deep sorrow and anger and
And also tremendous hope when I see how many people across the globe are saying, do not do this.
Not in our name.
Cease fire.
Stop killing innocent people.
And I just feel like whenever I've been very vocal about that and allowed comments on my social media, I get a lot of pushback.
And I'm like, you know what?
I'm not allowing people to do that anymore because I had to school somebody.
I had to school a white man on Facebook because he tried to come for me.
And, you know, he wanted to come with me with tears and talk about how, you know, I'm sitting in the comfort of my home.
I was like, trust and believe as a black woman, I'm not sitting in comfort.
You picked the wrong book.
And now I have to read you for filth.
So everyone else can also understand I'm not the one.
So now I'm mostly posting about what's happening on my Instagram.
I turn my comments off because I'm not interested in getting into a dialogue with people who don't want to see what the truth is.
You know, for me, this is about
you know, elevating the voices of people who are being killed.
It's not a platform for, you know, trying to convince me that this is about protecting Israel.
You know, as a mother and as someone who has tremendous empathy, I cannot...
I cannot be silent.
For me, I believe in that silence is violence thing.
And I know for a lot of people, it feels really scary to show up and say, hey, this is what I believe in.
But if we don't do that, then who does?
Who is the voice?
And we rely on other people to be like, oh, I'm going to speak up and I'm going to say stuff.
No, you need to speak up, even if it's just in your circle, even if it's just with your family.
You know, I think we all have that responsibility.
And anybody who is a parent, if you're a parent, like how do you even, there's no justification, right?
And so for me, it's just like, it's holding my son closer.
It not looking away at the horrifying images because it is a constant reminder that
None of us are free until we are all free.
I mean, I do deeply, deeply believe that, you know.
So, yeah, I don't know.
It's just day to day.
It's hard to be in the spirit of the holidays when you see what's happening.
And it's not just in Palestine, right?
We see things that are happening in the Congo and in so many other places where people of color are exploited, you know.
It's our responsibility, periods.
So much feeling.
I feel like every day I wake up and even the other day, Christine and I were somewhere and I audibly sighed.
I was like, ugh.
She was like, what's wrong?
I didn't know her.
I wasn't even...
doing anything I was like oh Jesus like what's wrong and I was like oh no I just like I'll be present in a moment of something and then I'll get a flash of like oh right we're living in a fucked up world and I like I get upset because it's so hard to be in the present moment with joy and
When in the background, there's so much destruction and violence and, you know, all these things.
And so it's like this, it's just this like juxtaposition.
And like, how do you, I don't know, it makes it very difficult to like,
you know be like oh happy and like oh but you know across the like it's it's a it's I don't I don't even know how to do that and so it's every morning like I'll be able to sleep and then I wake up and I'm like okay I'm gonna have a good day and then I'm like oh right the world is like
and so it hits me like a wave in the morning and it's really hard and you know and that it's like really emotionally exhausting um I'm always impressed that you can make it through the night Renee actually because it hits me like in the middle of the night where I'm just like the way you know feeling it yeah and I really I want to figure out you know I'm learning how to be a hopeful parent like to parent with hope as well as feeling in these times and frankly you know
most of my adult life, having, you know, even through like the academic lens, but studied so much of this history, you know?
coming to the table with that reality and with hope for my kiddo.
It's daunting.
That's the hard part, I think.
I think I had a breakdown a few weeks ago where I was like, we've committed our lives' work to social justice always with the idea of hope.
We're working towards change.
We're working towards something.
And I think
when I'm hit with a moment like this, I get very like, what the fuck?
Like, like where is the hope when it feels like it's just, it's a harsh reality to like, to be in and, and then be like, oh, and I'm supposed to go and tell my kids like,
this is why we do what we do because, you know, we're going to change things when I have worked my entire fucking life to try to change things.
And we're still in this mess, you know, and, and even worse, you know?
So yeah, I just, I had a little bit of a break a couple of weeks ago of like, where is the hope?
How do I even look my kids in the face and say that, that hope exists when I have committed my life's work to change.
And yeah,
It feels, you know, it just feels like, I don't know.
I'm trying not to go back into that dark place, but.
That's hard.
Because it's like these two truths that exist at the same time, which is that atrocity is happening all over the world all the time.
You know, and also, you know, we want to protect our children from it.
And I think for me, like the thing I struggle with my son is, is six years old is like, how do I even talk to him about these kinds of things?
Do you know what I mean?
Is he too small?
Is he too innocent for me to like burst his bubble that this is happening?
And, you know, I, I, so I sit with that and like, I sit with children being murdered and
And then I also sit with what, what do I owe my son, particularly at this time of year?
Like, I also want him to feel joy.
You know, I want him to feel gratitude.
Like both of those things are true.
And that's a hard thing to, to really sit with, you know, um,
I don't have any answers.
I have no answers.
And I don't think we need to have answers, honestly.
I think that... I like just sitting with things.
Having this conversation out loud, I think, is what so many parents are struggling with, right?
I think exactly what you said is...
what is our responsibility in this moment with our kids?
Like, how do we talk about it?
Do we talk about it?
What do we owe them in this, in this time?
The joy.
I always think about that, right?
Like my father passed away nine years ago.
He passed away two days before Thanksgiving.
And I mean, I can barely, and I had a, my oldest was two and I was pregnant with my youngest.
And I remember that whole kind of holiday season.
I was like, I don't know.
And finally, maybe like,
two weeks before Christmas, I was like, Oh, maybe we should get a tree and maybe we should, you know, and I remember at that time thinking, I don't want years from now to go back and be like, Oh, that's the one Christmas I didn't do because I was, you know, so sad.
And so, um, anyway, and, and thinking about that now, it's like, you know, what are we owing them that joy?
Like, I love the way you put that.
Um, and then also, um,
yeah, being with the reality of like, you know, there's going on.
I will say, I will share that.
I thought a lot about, you know, what, what is my responsibility to talk to my kids?
And I do think there is a certain level of innocence and bubble that I want to kind of hold for them.
I think there is, because I think that's something that a lot of us didn't have, right?
Like our bubbles were burst very young and, and without any kind of
cushion there was no cushion that's another thing on the table our little our little selves you know and so the best thing I could do was to try to talk to my kids in very simple terms and just say okay there's this thing happening you know across the world and a lot of people are
And I was like, what language do I use?
And I did say, I said, a lot of people are being killed and because there's people in power who are making really violent choices and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And really try to keep it real like...
you know, real simple.
And also, you know, they're not going to sit for a whole historical lecture.
I'm like, just trying to keep it real.
Like, you know, and I said, do you have any questions?
And my oldest was like, can it happen here?
And I said, you know, and, and, and in my head, I'm like, I don't know, you know, can it happen here?
And so I just said, you know, we're safe.
right now and we're going to do everything to keep ourselves safe.
And and I actually put it in the context of a boycott because I, you know,
You know, I've always been very, I've had a lot of critique around boycotts in my day.
And I've always been very strategic in that.
And so I just said, look, you know, there will be a time when we as a family might need to make choices about where we spend our money and where we don't.
And I just want you to know that when we as a family make that choice, this is why we're making that choice.
Right.
And so they were kind of like open to that, you know, like, you know.
So it was, it was, and it was like a, not even a 10 minute conversation.
It was like very like quick and then reassuring of their present safety.
And then that was it, you know?
And like thinking eight, eight and gosh, how old is Cruz again?
And Cruz will be 11 in like a few weeks.
And I have an eight year old too.
So just thinking like even six to eight, like that's a really big difference in age, you know?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I do appreciate the conversation.
It makes me think about my mother who passed away.
It's almost three years ago.
She was also a PhD and a professor.
And from a young age, I remember her talking to us about civil rights and talking.
I remember her telling us a story about Emmett Till.
And I might have been 11 or 12.
And I remember how traumatized I was.
Like I was having nightmares.
Yeah.
I'm not sure if maybe the way she explained it was the best way, but what I understood or what I understand now was like, she always wanted to emphasize how lucky we were, you know, and that we were standing on the shoulders of people who had made a tremendous amount of sacrifice and who had, you know, so much violence committed against them.
And she would share things even from her own childhood.
You know, she grew up in Roxbury in Boston and,
And, you know, she grew up in the projects and she was very dark skinned and she would always talk to me about the paper bag test.
So for people who don't know what the paper bag test is, is essentially there were a lot of sort of clubs and things for Black folks, but you had to be the color of a brown paper bag or lighter.
So she was never allowed in those spaces.
So she always talked to us a lot about sort of the privilege of having light skin, which
I think just gave me an awareness of that very, very early.
And I just remember as a kid, just being so devastated by that and thinking like, my mom is so awesome.
Like you're so, you know, people are stupid for not wanting her in the club, you know, but it was those conversations shaped sort of who I am and, and my outlook on the world, you know?
And so I just appreciate Renee that, you know,
you find the way that works to talk to your kids about it, to make it simple.
We don't have to necessarily get into grisly details, but how can we sort of like help them understand the situation and then help them.
They already know, right?
They already know what's right and what's wrong.
And so, and just creating that space for them to be able to ask questions and to just have that, that door open to conversation.
Yeah.
Because I want him to feel safe, especially as a Black boy.
I want him to feel safe.
And also, let's understand that not all kids have the luxury of safety.
So...
Yeah, right.
I think that's the constant.
That's the constant balance.
I did.
What was the other kind of thing I mentioned?
I mean, we're always talking about they have a sense of like injustice and justice.
Cruz is definitely an environmentalist.
He's always like.
I want to plant trees.
And, you know, I'm like, Oh, he's a tree hugger, like through and through, you know, and has, has that like sense of, of, you know, climate justice without maybe even knowing, you know, that term, but yeah,
um, you know, we talked a lot about too, of, we try to talk about like advocacy, right.
And say, like, I'll tell them like, if you witness or see anybody, you know, singing or doing anything, like, you know, it is important that you aid not add to that.
Right.
And B kind of step in and, you know, Oh, that was the thing that I was, um,
That was hard for me because, you know, truly I've never witnessed such divisiveness.
I mean, I've, I lived through a lot of, you know, more than Trump era, more than COVID, right?
Like the, like you were saying, like you had to turn off your comment, like, you know, the amount of divisiveness and like vitriol people just come on social media with is ridiculous.
like it's so hard.
And I, I, I, that was something I wasn't mindful of as I talked to my kids too, because I didn't want them to feel like they needed to be defending anything.
Right.
Or like, you know, being put in a position where they have to defend any political views, you know?
And so I just said, you know, and I kind of asked them, I said, are you, that's how I started it.
I was like, Oh, have you heard anything?
You know?
And they were like, no.
And then I said, well, you know, if ever it does come up, don't you don't you don't need to have that conversation.
You can just come and tell me and we'll talk about it.
Right.
Like, I don't want them to ever feel like they need to be put in some, you know, not that that would happen.
And we our kids go to a really small private school where there's conversations amongst the parents and how to like hold, you know, like how to hold boundaries around things like that.
But.
It's just, you know, you just never know.
And so I was like, also very much like, you know, we'll talk about it as a family.
You don't need to feel like you have to defend yourself or any, you know, I don't, they don't need to be put in that position.
You know, that was something I really wanted to be clear about, right?
Like,
And that we're always here to talk with them.
You know, that's the thing.
I think that's the biggest thing sometimes.
And maybe that's what I didn't grow up with maybe.
But, um, yeah, like I always try to create any time in the evening where I'm like, momento time, you know, like anything that I can help you carry anything that came up, you know, um,
I was going to say, I love, you know, thinking of Cruz, this beautiful brown boy, right?
Like when it's environmentalism, it's so beautiful.
And the language that I use with Jaguar is around greed.
Because I think this good and bad, you know, kind of in the narratives that he's hearing, I'm like, I think, Papa, like, there's not really bad people.
There are greedy people, you know?
And so wanting to move into, like, how do we share, you know, the resources that we have?
How do we hold on to the things that are beautiful to us?
And how do we hold accountable those who are, like,
you know hoarding and taking um the power the energy the food the whatnot you know and so in the context of of you know what's happening in the world right now or the what's happening forever you know i guess it's just like those are so pretty greedy guys you know pretty greedy people big time
The other thing I wanted to talk about is it's come up in conversations recently is the myth of progress.
You know, as we were talking about hope and, you know, how much we worked and when we see all these images, you know, and they're so, and they're just out there.
And it's not like they aren't happening all the time, all around the world and in the U.S., right?
Things, different atrocities, different greedy people are everywhere, you know?
Absolutely.
but it feels just so shocking to us.
And I think there is this hope that we are making the world better and that the greedy people will eventually die off and we'll be left with a better world.
And when someone was like, oh, I think that's the myth of progress.
What do I do if there is no sense of that?
You know, it might be a colonial thought.
But is it?
You know, I don't know.
I think, you know, we've talked about this a lot, the idea that liberation is some utopic future, right?
Like somewhere, you know, in the future, we will be liberated.
And I think that what I hold on to...
When I saw Black Panther and I came out of Black Panther and I was like, oh, fuck.
Because that's Afrofuturism, right?
The idea, right?
And I was like, oh, fuck.
They just created that utopia.
Like, you know...
With film, right, like they created that utopic future, right, in Wakanda.
And like, and that's actually how we create liberated futures is by making it up out of nowhere, right?
Like, I think that's actually an important part of the liberatory process is to not just dismantle
all the shit imagine it's to imagine like okay well what can it look like then and so i was to me that was like i i actually talk about that in my classes a lot i'm like look wakanda right like that's like let's use that as the beacon of of hope right and and of course you know as the you know as the marvel universe evolves right that's gonna get fucked but like
But just thinking about the process of the director or the writer creating this place called Wakanda where it's actually protected and not in a violent way, right?
It's not protected violently, right?
Anyway, so it's an interesting thing to me.
And so what I try to lean into is, and it's hard because there's times when I go into the deep, dark,
places of my mind and I'm like, but I try to remind myself that liberation is not in the future.
or just in the future, that liberation is in the here and now.
And that when we are faced with such atrocities, right, it's like harder to see that, right?
It's like, how can you see through all of this that we are actually living into liberation?
So I don't know if it's, I think maybe progress is a very, is a colonial term because it is in terms of linear, right?
Like things are linear.
Sure.
When we know that our ancestors didn't think of time in that way, right?
And so I just keep thinking like, where are the moments, right?
Where are the moments of liberatory possibility?
And if we can keep building more moments,
You know, it's like, we're just going to push all this stuff out.
Right.
And like, and so I think about what, you know, what do I hold on to?
When I think about the students that come into my class and they have, and this is just one example, right?
When I think about myself as a young kid who was
dealing with gender stuff.
And the only language I had at the time was to say tomboy, right?
Like when I was a young little tomboy, you know, exploring my gender.
And so when students come into my class and they have these terms like non-binary, right?
And gender non-conforming.
I'm like, fuck, like y'all just, y'all just did it.
Like you didn't wait for anybody to create this utopic future.
You just fucking said it.
Like, this is what I am.
This is who, and I'm going to claim it unapologetic.
To me, that's liberatory.
Right.
Whatever you want to call it.
It's like, it's already happening.
And in fact, that's why we're seeing such.
astonishing violence right now because it's it's white supremacy colonialism it's their last attempts their last attempts at holding on to the structures and we're like oh no homie yeah it's yeah it's gone right like yeah yeah and I think that like
The difference between today versus 30, 40, 50, 100 years ago is the power of social media, which doesn't allow you to be able to, you know, paint a narrative that is untrue.
You know what I'm saying?
And so.
You know, I know a lot of people who are only looking at mainstream media, right, and who are hearing one side of the story.
And, you know, I sometimes struggle to have conversations with those people where I'm like, can you please look at other sources?
Like, ask yourself the question, like, why are you getting this one-sided view?
Go watch some Al Jazeera.
Like, here's people you can follow on social media.
So you can have a fuller understanding of what's really happening.
Right.
And like, you need to hear the narrative from the people who are actually being killed.
Like, yeah, right.
That would be helpful.
But yeah, I mean, it's it's just it's the language.
And and what I heard you say, Renee, about like, you know.
young people aren't waiting, like they just are like, this is the language that I'm creating.
But, you know, I think it's powerful when we see how language has changed over, you know, decades and centuries, even the way now that we talk about enslaved Africans, where we used to say slaves, now we say enslaved, right?
Because saying somebody is a slave is not their identity, right?
It's a condition that was put upon them.
And so I think all of that nuance is so important.
And, you know, the people who are like, oh, they, them, da, da, da, da, da.
And I'm like, that's because it's not about you.
Like, why are you upset about having to call somebody the way that they want to be called?
You need to ask yourself that question.
Why are you struggling and why are you so resistant?
Like dig deeper into that.
And whether it's on a conscious level or not, you are benefiting, right?
You are benefiting from white supremacy.
You are benefiting from being a straight white male, you know?
And it's like, no one wants to really dig deep into that.
I feel like after George Floyd, there was this wave of like,
you know everybody's like reading all the books and you know and they all want to be like DEI experts and I'm just thinking to myself like but when it comes down to it um
like what are your real values?
Like how do you show up in the world?
And is this just lip service?
Like your Black Lives Matter sign in the front of your yard is nice and all, but at the end of the day, are you willing to be uncomfortable?
Are you willing to give up power?
Like are you, because that's really what it is.
It's not just about this sort of surface level allyship, but it requires you to make sacrifices.
You know, yeah.
I want to say something to that because I agree.
I think and I'll go back to some of the points you're saying.
And I just want to say something about like the idea of like I think being uncomfortable is is such a thing.
I think it's, it's beyond just like being willing to be uncomfortable.
It's like, we don't even have infrastructure to be able to help each other be uncomfortable.
Right.
Like we're so used, like, we don't even know how, like that, that it's, it's not easy to be uncomfortable.
And do we have like support systems so that it's like, okay, we're going to, we're going to force you to be uncomfortable, but you're not going to be out on the ledge doing it on your own.
Right.
Like, and not that we have to do those things, but we don't have infrastructure for that.
So I think it's like,
It's beyond just like, you know, having people be uncomfortable.
It's like giving people spaces and places to process that uncomfortability, you know?
I mean, how long have we been in therapy or in other spaces?
Exactly, right?
Like we've all been having to do this uncomfortable fucking work, you know?
And I think the other thing is, you know, when we say things like, what are you willing to give up and sacrifice?
And I, and I think that there, I think that's important.
And I think it triggers people's scarcity.
And so I think there's this notion of like, you have to give up everything, right.
Or you have to sacrifice everything because you,
There's only so much.
And so I really try to think about it as like, maybe you don't actually have to give up anything, but you have to be willing to not hoard.
You have to be willing to only take your share.
Does that make sense?
Because I think there's this- But for greedy people who have-
They actually give up things, you know, like, but that's the thing is, I think that like, because I've always said this, that it seems to me like when we talk about things like privilege, I see more people who are in some marginalized capacity, more willing to accept their privilege than people who are at the most privilege, right?
Like, we can all sit here, I can sit here and be like, I've got, you know, I'm a white passing Latina.
So I've got privilege, right?
I'm highly educated.
So I've got privilege, I'm willing to name all my privileges.
But those white, cis, straight, rich men are not willing to even talk about privilege.
And so I feel like we actually don't need to really give up that much.
Like, I think what we have to do is to say, like, there's enough.
It's just that the ultra greedy, you know, the Elon Musk's.
and the deaf faces yep and all those homies are hoarding all this shit so really what i would say is like okay can you go and hold them accountable can we stop romanticizing these fucking mofos right as if they're fucking geniuses for like
they're probably exploiting somebody else's labor.
Right.
And they're just bringing it.
They want to go to Mars so badly.
I'm like, please, all of you get on a shuttle and go to Mars and never come back.
Trust and believe no one will be sad about that shit.
You know, it's like the amount of money that you spent on that, you could have literally taken care of every hungry person in this country.
Do you know, like, I just, I can't wrap my head around that kind of shit.
I can't.
And I have no tolerance for, and also I also am tired as a woman and a person of color of feeling like it's my job to hold those people accountable.
I need other white people to hold you accountable.
That's what I need.
Yeah.
Right?
Like, I need men to hold men accountable.
But you know what happens?
What triggers that?
Why they don't do that?
And I talk about this in my classes all the time because at the end of the semester, I'm like, all right, so what's the solutions for all this shit that we just talked about?
And I do say, I said, you know, and the few men that I have in my classes, I'll say, like, y'all need to do some shit because we are tired.
We're just trying to survive the patriarchy, right?
And I think what happens is that
if they have to hold other men accountable, it also means they have to hold themselves accountable, right?
That means we have to be willing to sit with our complicity in these systems and sift through that mess while also holding other people accountable.
And I think that that's the hardest part for people, right?
Is to like, not just look at that, is to look at themselves and being like, how am I complicit in all of this?
And that's the hardest part, you know?
I mean, cause I've done that, right?
I've been like,
fuck like have I said some shit have I done some shit right and we're human we're human who are born into this innately fucked up society right and so of course we're going to perpetuate some of that right now you know and so and it's okay to just admit that and then you know you know better you do better right like and um but that's I think that's the hard I wanted to go back to something you talked about like in in 2020 when everybody was reading all the books
which makes me laugh because I remember even then I was like, Oh God, I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know how this is going to go long-term.
Right.
Like, but I recently saw something where it said like the difference between diversity, like DEI and liberation.
Yeah.
right so the idea of like diversity is like oh I can be in community with you and liberation is like the system is fucked and let's change the system so that you know we don't have to have these other kinds of like you know it's not just about uh tolerance right like I'm going to tolerate being in in
your presence, right?
Or you existing.
But I'm actually going to make it so that, you know, we all are equally viewed as humans and, you know, deserving of things.
So I just, I wanted to kind of highlight that, right?
Like the difference between DEI and liberation.
And I think that's actually what we're seeing right now is a lot of like, like, oh, it wasn't just enough to be
diverse right or it's not right no we have to look systemically and and change the system you know because we're free when we're all free right kind of yeah flip that around
I mean, I think I see that a lot in my work, this notion of diversity, which is very much that checkbox thing like, oh, OK, we've got diverse staff.
Right.
But does that staff feel empowered?
Does that staff feel they belong?
Are they are they seen?
And like that is the that is really the difference for me.
And I think the other piece is just going back to what we were talking about earlier about people willing to be uncomfortable.
Like white people's discomfort will never be as painful as what people of color go through every single day.
So I am a compassionate person.
I really am.
And get over it.
Like your temporary discomfort is something that you get to turn off when you want to turn it off.
Our oppression doesn't get to switch on and off.
And so let's also understand that, right?
None of it is easy, but I do feel hopeful in that we are finding better ways to talk about this and we are finding better language for how to explain things.
Um, and, and I also know, like, I'm not a patient person.
Like I know I am not somebody who should be doing conflict resolution or like being able to talk to white people.
And I wish I was that person sometimes, but I'm like, I'm not.
And I'm okay with that.
I'm completely and utterly okay with that.
You know,
My father was white.
And so it wasn't until later in my life that I saw the kind of racism that was happening within my own family.
You know, that I was experiencing misogyny and I was experiencing gaslighting, you know.
And so, like, how do you even come to terms with shitting your own family, much less people out in the world?
You know, that's hard.
That's really hard.
You want to talk about discomfort?
Right.
Um, so if we can all, like you said, be willing to acknowledge that every single one of us holds privilege in some way, whether it's big or small and, um,
And then not sitting around thinking, hmm, how do I be a better ally?
Bitch, go ask how you can be a better ally.
Your rainbow signs are not it.
See, I think the flaw in allyship, too, is assuming that...
because unless you are a rich white cis man and that's a very really that's a very small portion of the population right and they all they got all the power and all the money and all the things but unless you're that like you are in some proximity to marginalization right so i think it again it goes beyond allyship it's to say oh my marginalized my marginalization
comes from the same place that yours does yeah so it's we're not allies yeah yeah right like that to me sometimes that's the missing part it's like we're not um fighting these separate entities right like oh there's patriarchy and there's racism and there's you know homophobia it's like it's all the same fucking shit it's the same thing yeah
it's all the same so you know if you're if you feel you know oppressed in some way then can you see you know i'll give you an example like because this was talk about family right like i grew up in a family with even though the women were the ones in power in my family that we were still outnumbered by the men so i have a lot of men cousins hopefully they don't listen um
Or maybe they need to listen.
And it comes from a place of love.
But Christmas Eve, you know, the time of love is coming up.
So hopefully they listen after that.
A really interesting time because I, you know, I'm trying to have just enjoy myself, not trying to be, you know.
But, you know, a few too many shots of tequila and, you know, words are had.
And there was a conversation one time and it haunts me because I think at the time I didn't have language to hold that conversation.
And so because we were talking about essentially what was happening is the oppression Olympics.
Right.
My husband, who is very dark skinned and who also has disabilities.
Right.
Was like trying to say like, you know, that he has it worse than me as a woman.
Right.
And I was like.
And I did try to be like, I get it.
I understand that.
I understand that you as a dark brown man are gonna be afraid of cops in a different way.
I completely understand.
And I said, I understand your disabilities.
As a professor, I try to make sure that I'm aware of the ways that I engage with students with disabilities.
And to me, what I couldn't say in the time
Was I am willing to see your oppressions and I'm willing to understand my privilege and then do something about that and acknowledge that.
What I need you to do is you as a man to recognize your male privilege and to do something about that.
Right.
And to recognize that your oppression comes from the same place that mine does.
Right.
And if we want to help each other out, we got to help each other out.
Right.
Like, cause he was not willing to see his male privilege.
He was like, well, I'm oppressed for being Brown and you're oppressed for being a woman.
So we're all good.
We're on an equal field.
And I was like, no.
That's not quite how it works because you could still perpetuate misogyny and sexism.
Right.
And that's not what we want.
Right.
Like and so it was it's hard, I think, to kind of see the complexities of that.
Right.
To see like we're fighting the same fucking we're not fighting each other.
I'm not here to tell you I have it worse than you.
I'm not here to say I have the same as you.
I'm here to say, can you see me and I'm willing to see you and can we come together to work against the same machine?
And that's, I think, something that's hard for people.
They're like, oh, I'm an ally because they don't actually see their oppression as intrinsically linked to mine.
They're just like white saviors or male saviors or they're coming from that place, from this higher.
They're like, let me help you.
It's like, no, help yourself.
Right.
Let's help each other help ourselves.
You know what I mean?
That's, I think, is like, I don't know.
That's the thing that's missing.
It's like they see there as separate.
I'm like, no, we're...
We're trying to fight the same fucking machine here, right?
I don't know.
It's frustrating.
Yes, it is.
Yeah, it's exhausting.
It is exhausting.
I mean, we've also encountered people talking about things like cancel culture.
Oh, cancel culture.
Oh, it's so dangerous.
It's such a slippery slope.
Yeah, because on one hand...
Here's what I'm going to say.
I think cancel culture exists for historically marginalized people, right?
100%.
I don't think cancel culture exists for people in various positions of privilege, right?
And the people who are claiming cancel culture are the ones in positions that they're like, oh, you know, I'm being canceled.
I'm like, what canceling has happened?
Have you lost your job?
Have you lost money?
Have you lost opportunities?
Have you lost respect?
And mostly they just feel uncomfortable, right?
That's in the end.
They just, they feel uncomfortable.
And maybe most generally lose those things, right?
Like
for a moment, right?
Because in 2020, I remember everybody was getting outed or the Me Too movement, right?
A few years before that, right?
Like all the men were getting outed and all the white people were getting outed.
We're in 2023.
What happened?
They still all got jobs.
Right?
Yeah, 100%.
They were able to recover their, you know, reputations, all of that, right?
And conversely, what we're seeing now is cancel culture form critical race theory, ethnic studies, right?
Queer literature, right?
Like, that's cancel culture, right?
And that will have much more longer-term impacts than whatever the fuck white people think is happening to them, right?
Right.
So I think like when we've come across that, right, it's like, oh, like, how can you talk or how can you be afraid of cancel culture when, you know, really we're just trying like we've been canceled for, you know, forever.
We're just trying to like we're barely trying to get our histories into the, you know, into the curriculum.
Yeah.
I mean, I even, for me, like a recent example of that is, is Lizzo being canceled, you know, like there was so much like sort of surface support, like, Oh, I love Lizzo.
She's so amazing.
Oh my God.
She's so great.
But then like one accusation comes out and it's like the fat black, amazing singer all of a sudden is canceled.
And it's like, yeah, even like,
when I think about people like R Kelly and Michael Jackson, who people knew were doing shit, they still continued to be popular.
They still continued to make money.
Like we have seen that happen over and over and over again.
But the minute a happy fat black woman who is successful starts to get some backlash.
And I don't know whether those accusations were true or not.
for me, it was very, it was so clear.
It was just like clear as day.
Like, yup.
It was messing up or whatever.
One thing happens and all of a sudden she's completely written off, you know, just thinking like there are plenty of people out there who are doing nasty, awful shit over and over and over again.
And they're not getting canceled.
And so I like,
That's a real struggle.
That's a real, real struggle to witness.
Yeah.
Oh, that was a hard one.
I remember I'm like, what?
Renee gave me the lowdown.
She showed me everything.
But I mean, I have things to say about that.
And I think that actually, well, I don't need to say what I think about Lizzo.
Because I think that, you know, I think it's true, though.
I think exactly what you're saying.
The point to what you're saying is that it was easy to throw her under the bus, right?
It was easy to be like, oh, you know, there was no grace.
There was no grace at all.
And I think too, like, sometimes when things like that happen, I'm like, I feel a little bit like, and that's not even my community, right?
Like, but I feel like, oh, these are intercommunal things.
that are being aired and then it allows white people to come in and show their anti-blackness and show their fat phobia and all those things I mean because we've had things like that happen in our community too where I'm like oh fuck can't we just have like a conversation and then for the world you know without having to like because then it makes it so much easier to be like oh well see you know all Mexicans are blah blah blah blah blah right like right exactly
Exactly.
And it's such a tricky it's such a tricky thing to navigate.
Right.
But anyway, I know I get kind of like kind of in this and we've got a lot of things going on in our personal lives.
And I'm like, oh, this feels so hard.
This conversation was good, but hard.
And I'm thinking again about Cruz and I'm thinking about our children.
I'm thinking about the moments.
Like, I just want to lean into, like, at the end of this conversation, like, when Jaguar does something, like, and he's still, like, being, like, kind of a trickster and jokey in the middle of a stressful situation.
I'm just like, you're my hope for the future.
Or when he's, like, you know, his inner magic just comes out or when we can see them shine.
He's just in a winter spiral and seeing their personalities come out.
um santos uh renee's kid hopped the spiral just out of the circle and then hop back in and then did it it was i was just so hopeful after that just thinking our kids are uniquely themselves it's like one of our students who are not like unapologized non-binary you know like i'm like
You know, that freshness.
I think, too, because we have our kids in a Waldorf school, and there's a, you know, it's not perfect, right?
It's definitely got its own flaws.
But I think the thing that I really appreciate about this particular, like, pedagogical philosophy is their approach to child development and this idea of, like,
things in things, presenting things to children when they're developmentally ready for them, and then hard things presenting it to them
at the stage that they are in and then allow that to kind of grow.
Right.
Like you don't have to tell them, okay, you know, slavery, like, and the atrocities of it, but you can present it in a way where they can, you know, at their age level, at their developmental level.
And then you build on that versus let's just pretend like it didn't exist ever.
Right.
Like, and then eventually they figure it out and that could be like a really, um,
uh you know hard moment right to see that like to to have the bubble lifted right um and i so i appreciate this like like child like understanding how do we present material to them in a in a child developmentally appropriate way and i think that what that to me that helps me balance the idea of like because they're very much in like we want to hold their child innocence as long as possible
And I have pushed back on that a lot because I'm like, not everybody has access to that, right?
Like people of color don't have access to that, particularly Black kids don't have access to that.
And, right, it's not but, it's not either or, it's and, right?
Yeah.
How can we...
How can we hold on to their innocence as much as possible while also presenting them with the reality of things?
And so I always try to hold that in my heart because I think that the bubble of magic of childhood is actually...
the important piece that's going to get us even further into liberation because we shut their imaginations off too early.
So if we allow them to be in their imaginary magical place, and then, you know, we slowly kind of present them with the realities of the world, they're going to be much more open to creating liberatory possibilities because they haven't been said, Oh, the world is fucked.
The reality, you know, the reality of the world is fucked.
You're going to be fucked and that's it.
It's like, let them, let them play in their unicorns and butterflies and then be like, you know, siphon in like, okay, here's, here's how things are.
And they're, you know, this is why I think Cruz is more, you know, like he doesn't like to hear about climate change, but we talk about it.
And then he's like, oh, but if we plant trees, you know, we do like, he's much more hopeful versus like, you know, like hopeless.
And so I think we need them to be hopeful.
And we need them to reimagine our futures.
We need them to lean into being playful and lean into different ways of seeing the world.
Cause I'm a jaded bitch, you know, like, so I don't want to put that heaviness on him.
You know, so that's the key is like, how do we protect that, that magicalness?
Because that's, that's, that is the vision.
It's their vision that will see us into, you know, and we need to harness that we need to hone that we need to give them spaces to do that, you know?
100%.
So I think it's like, it's not all or nothing, right?
It's not like, oh, we just keep them in a bubble forever.
And it's not, we just tell them everything's fucked, right?
It's like, how do we like the balance between that, you know?
Yeah.
Okay.
So as we wrap up, please tell us where we can find your work.
You know, where do you live online?
Where do I live?
So mostly on Instagram at a splash of Pia.
You'll see that right now, as I said earlier, I'm really just posting about what's happening in Palestine.
Usually I am posting about personal style, interior design or other things that sort of inspire me.
I particularly liked you all's hurricane updates that you did at that one point.
Yes.
That was fabulous.
That was so fabulous.
That was my husband's idea.
Like, he did it first, and then I was like, I want to do that, too.
It was so good.
I'm wanting to lean into more playfulness um and really tap into that you know I've been practicing and studying improv for over 20 years and I want to bring more of that like into my work um and just into the way that I operate in the world we did a lot of yes ands today right um and allowing for there to be multiple truths and allowing for more possibility so um
So yeah.
So if that interests you, you can follow me or not.
I'm good.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I'm like, I was just taking notes.
I'm like, because we're always struggling to find a title for each episode, something that's like catchy and fun.
And you were talking and I'm like, because something you said early on, you said something about fuckery.
And I was like, oh my God, I love that word, fuckery.
So I was like, fuckery.
Possibility in the, in the what?
Possibility in the time of fuckery.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
A hundred percent.
That's perfect.
Possibility in the time of fuckery.
Like that's a whole ass book.
That's a book right there.
I love it.
I love it.
All right.
Thank you, Kia.
Thank you for being here.
We love you so much.
Yeah.
Thank you for being you out in the world.
Yeah.
Thank you for having me.
I appreciate you both.
